Prophet of the restoration
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Let me start by explaining what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's definition of a restoration is since there are two aspects of the word by which we apply scriptoral meaning. The first being the restoring of the Gospel, and the second is the restoring of the Priesthood.
There are several examples of American idealisms which pointed to the restoration of the priesthood, and began to take shape throughout 1800's quite literally setting the stage for the coming of a Prophet such as Joseph Smith. In this period of American history there were many religious revivals going on (and I take note that when Joseph mentions in his early accounts of an unusual uprising of religious excitement in the area, that he really understates the enormity of what was going on.)
For instance; Roger Williams who founded The city of Providence became convinced that the ordinances having been lost in the apostasy could not be validly restored without a special divine commission, making the following statement upon his departure from the Baptist sect:
"There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking." (Picturesque America, p. 502.)
Later in 1838, Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote another Ecclesiastical criticism in his divintiy school adderss;
"It is my duty to say to you that the need was never greater for revelation than now. The doctrine of inspiration is lost; miracles, prophecy, and the holy life exist as ancient history only. Men speak about revelation as somewhat long ago given, and done as if God were dead. It is the office of a true teacher to show that God is, and not was; that he speaketh, not spake."
And in an even earlier event, Charles Wesley, breaking ecclesiastically with his more famous brother John Wesley over the decision to ordain without any authority to do so, wrote;
"How easily are bishops made By man or woman's whim: Wesley his hands on Coke hath laid, But who laid hands on him?"
So even in the early days of America, people were begining to effectively take hold of the true meaning of religious freedom and step outside of the Christian based norm. It was in this particular age when mankind was given the right to question and criticize the authority and authenticity of the established religions of the day; having moved past the threat of inquisitions, and witch hunting. So the timing was just right for the restoration of the priesthood, and for some it was long awaited. One might think that if the restoration of the priesthood would have happened in the dark ages, it wouldn't have gotten very far.
The Apostacy
Where prophecy is absent, apostasy reigns. We believe that the the apostasy occurred shortly after the death of the original apostles of Jesus Christ. Amos predicted a famine of hearing the words of the Lord, Paul predicted divisions among the people, and later stated that there would be a falling away before the return of Christ, along with the rise of false prophets, and false Christs "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof." followed by wars, contentions, and all manners of wickedness abounding.
It is a constant theme throughout the old testament that as soon as the people will continue without the guidance of the Lord and his prophets, they will immediately go astray and turn their hearts to their own desires. Such was the case in the times of Moses, through to the days of the mortal ministry of Jesus, and again to these last days.
The Priesthood
Jesus bestowed the priesthood on the apostles, giving the divine declaration; "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven."
And with that priesthood held by those men throughout the eternities, he sent those same Apostles, Peter, James, and John, to restore the priesthood keys to mankind through the Prophet Joseph by divine inspiration and by the laying on of their hands.
The Priesthood is for any worthy man who desires to follow the teachings of Christ and partake in the eternal blessings of Heaven. It is not obtained through status or worldly accomplishment, it is not prepetuated through a theological degree, it is the power of God deligated to man, different from any other power on the face of the Earth, without it there could be a church in name only, and it has to be given to us from the hands of God himself. Above all the priesthood can not be used by principles of unrightousness, only by patience, meekness and longsuffering, and love unfeigned.
Alma 41: 13-15,
"But the meaning of restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish,-good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
Therefore, my son, see that ye are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things, then shall ye receive your reward; yea ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored to you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.
For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all."
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It certainly seems to have gone in that direction, but the Lord wouldn't have had it go any other way.
just want share this with you. please let me know what you think.
The Great apostasy has not happen yet.
John 15:2, Every branch (believer, disciple, true Christian) that beareth fruit, He (God) shall prune it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (The true Word of God will continue forever.) The branches are the believers and/or teachers and the fruit are those who are taught. God will get those people ready (prune) and the cycle will continue forever.
This is what God promised.
The Great apostasy is talked about in 2 Thessalonians Ch 2. When the people thought that the day of the Lord had already began.
2Thess 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (The Great apostasy) AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (Satan).
The Great apostasy (the Great falling away) will happen when the anti christ (the son of perdition"damnable to die") comes and teaches his false doctrine (Rev 13). The people will be tricked into worshiping the beast (satan) and will be turned away from the true Christ. The great Apostasy.
Jesus promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; John 14:16 we will always have the Holy spirit we will always have Jesus
Yes, I've seen that argument many times before.
We should note that in 2 thesolonians 2:3 the Greek word apostasia was translated as "falling away" in the KJV. Thus Paul is saying that the early Christians should not be fooled by false Christs since there would be an unmistakable apostasy before Christ's return. Consider also the following: Matthew 24:4, 9-13, 24; John 16:2-3; Acts 20:29-30; 1 Corinthians 1:10-13; Galatians 1:6-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 12-13; 4:3-4; Titus 1:10-16; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 3:3; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 3-4; Revelation 13:4-8.
Other Biblical verses such as Matthew 17:11; Acts 1:6-7; 3:19-21; Ephesians 1:10; and Revelation 14:6 confirm the LDS belief that a restoration of the gospel was prophesied to occur in these latter days.
As Jesus taught, new wine cannot be put in old bottles or both the wine and the bottles will be lost (Matthew 9:16-17). The multitudes of Protestant churches existing today are proof of the fact that a reformation cannot succeed in restoring absolute truth. God has always accomplished this end through new revelation to his chosen prophets and not through self-appointed reformers.
? Are you saying that 2 Thesolonians is not talking about the falling away of the church which lead to the loss of the priesthood?
Can you give me your thoughts on matt 17:11 Acts 1:6-7 3:19-21 eph 1:10 and rev 14:6. how do this verses support the lds belief. please explain each one please
Matt 17;11 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things"
Thus John the baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah, However he was not a reincarnation of Elias as some denominations would have you believe. In this verse Jesus prophecied that the priesthood keys would need to be restored to the Earth hence they would have to be lost in order for them to be restored.
Now let me ask you, was the baptism of John from God or Men?
I see you are reading from the Joseph smith's translation. It is not "Elias" Its Elijah which is in every KJV in the world. I know JS used the Hellenize form. You need to read the King James and see how different the translations are. Reading the JST you can see how Joseph Smith manipulated the true scripture of the bible to make it say what every he wanted. You did not answer my ?
? Are you saying that 2 Thessalonian is not talking about the falling away of the church which lead to the loss of the priesthood?
Where in the matt 17:11 (KJV) does it talk about the priesthood?
I would also like to know your thoughts on Acts 1:6-7 3:19-21 eph 1:10 and rev 14:6 and how do this verses support the lds belief. please explain each one please
I actually got that quote from the kjv on bible gateway.com. Most LDS do not even own a copy of the JST. We do in fact read only the KJV. Also I believe that Joseph Smith's translation is not a Hellenized form of the bible. There are many different translations of the bible and to say that any one of them has an exact translation of what was actually said word for word is a false precept unless the translator were inspired of God or perhaps a prophet who speaks English.
Now my question was not answered. Was the baptism of John from God or men?
Are you done talking with me?
fine I ll answer this is what i believe on you question
Matt 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Yes, that is a quote from John who was the last prophet of the old covenant. Was his baptism from God or men?
I am not sure what your question is. I thought matt 3:11 answered the question. Are you asking me if the person getting baptise was getting baptised to John or God? can you explain further.
Did you get my explination on Acts 3:19-21? I know this is one of the versus where we (the LDS Church) think it prophecy of a global apostasy calling the time afterward the "Time of restitution of all things". Paul prophesied of it to the Thessalonians.
this is what i get out of this versue My thoughts are in the ().
Acts 3:19-26. You must continue reading. Verse 20-21. when will this Restitution (Greek for to set in order) occur? Verse 21) God will send Jesus (we must stay with the subject) Whom the Heavens must receive (Jesus was already received in heaven at this point) Until the times of restitution of all things. ( what will happen at His return) 23 and it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear the Prophet (capital P so it must be talking about Jesus) shall be destroyed. Same as 2 Thess 1:7-12 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 9) who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power.
These verses are talking about Jesus' second coming. Now what is restored? everything. Rev 21 The new heaven, the new earth. The present universe will be cleansed from all effects of sin (2 peter 3:7, 10-13). everything will be set in ORDER (Restitution), just like it was before the fall of Satan or the sin in the garden.
now how will Jesus return Rev 1:7 Behold He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see Him. Matt 24:30,31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall ALL THE TRIBES of the earth mourn, and they SHALL see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. and he shall send his angels with a great SOUND OF A TRUMPET and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. it does not say anywhere that he was going to come back in silence, where only one man will see him.
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I believe that your refrence to revelations is refering to the second coming of Christ, however it was also prophecied that Elijah would return as well before the coming of the Lord. Just because these things happen over what would seem to be a long period of time to the average human it does not connstitute a deficiency of biblical texts by one persons interpertation of when things would occur chronologically. I've noticed that in some Christian circles the debate over pre, mid and post tribulation rapture would occur. In truth it is knitt picking, to surmise when those things will occur and it in inconsiquential to us in our day because those events are something to happen in a far off frame of time.
Christians such as myself are more interested in what we can do to prepare for his coming, (see the parable of the ten virgins), rather than argue about a chain of events that we will probably never live to see.
Remember that the scriptures attest to the fact that no man will know the time of his coming hence we are to be always prepared and vigilant for the arrival of the bridegroom.
Now John was ordained of God to baptize the children of men. He did it by the authority of God, therefore if a man is baptized into a church in the name of Jesus Christ it is by the authority of the priesthood.
Do you believe the scriptures when Jesus commanded that men should be baptized in order to obtain the kingdom of heaven? And are you baptized?
i don't know where you are trying to take this conversation. but what i am trying to show is how the LDS church has taken scripture of the bible and twisted and manipulated it to make it sound the way they want it to sound. Like i shared above, they don't read the whole verse to get the whole truth of the verse. and were they take scriptures from the bible and put in the book of mormon and add the words like, unless, if est. I still want to know what you think about 2Thess 2:3 AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (Satan).
are you talking about the returning of Elijah to prepare the way for Jesus? Because that prophesy is talking about John the Baptist. I don't have my bible in front of me but it translate as one like Elijah, teaching repentance.
about baptism. was the thief that was crucified next to Jesus, baptized?
Yes have baptized recently. it was a very special moment for me. I was also baptized when I was eight in the LDS church but that was more like a forced baptism. it was not because i loved the lord not because i wanted to please him it wasn't because i wanted the world to see that i am a new man.
When I was baptized into the lord's church I rose up from the water as a cleansed and new creature. I can say with the uttermost sobrioty and solemnety that I fully understood the events which took place. My spirit was filled with the holy Ghost and I was from that point on a deciple of Christ.
The holy ghost is my constant companion, it is with me in my daily life, it is there to guide me and build the strength of my spirituality. At times when I have chosen to be without this soverign gift from above my life has truely been without meaning. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost men are carnal and devilish, they have no other goal than to drag themselves and others down and away from God.
When I was a child my mother dragged me to church every Sunday kicking and screaming, as an adult I now know the love and dedication that she had for her family, and the desire that she had for me to partake in the resplendent joy of the everlasting Gospel and the restoration of God's church in these latterdays.
I would never abandon my family or my religion to walk down some path other than the one which the Lord has provided for me. Being grounded and settled in the faith of Jesus Christ I am thankful for the opportunities which have been given to me by our Lord to help the less fortunate, and spend my life in service to my God and my fellow man.
Now let me take a minute to boast of the greatness of the lord who has worked through me in this past year. We as a quorum have built access ramps in the homes of three disabled individuals, chopped wood for dozens of widows and elderly members of the church. We have donated canned goods by the truckload to victims of natural disasters around the world, helped people with fallen trees which have been knocked down by windstorms. (I would say that it has been the greatest blessing of the lord to send windstorms to people who need the gospel of christ to be reawakened in their lives.)My wife has knitted stocking caps for homless people, and engaged in food drives, and cooked meals for those who have lost loved ones or lost their jobs. I've cut countless lawns, tracted with missionaries, and assembled with the brethren of the church to discuss the matters of the less fortunate consistantly and continually, and I hope to continue this great work which the Lord has prepared for me to do, and that, I submit, is a greater work than engaging in some fruitless debate with you.
Well i have been involved in the same works you have done. but the LDS church is not the only ones doing this. Churches all of the world do this but they are not boosting about it. My bishop acted like we were the only ones doing this, that the lds church was always the first ones there doing something. When we went to Louisiana there were people from everywhere out there helping. When we got back home all I heard was how much our church did that we did the most est. The bishop made it sound like we were the only ones there. but what ever.
i finally told my parents that i no longer wish to be a Mormon and i would be removing my name. and guess what happened, exactly what i thought. they haven't talk to me in 3 weeks. my old friends will not return my phone calls. the bishop told every one to stay away from me. Not very loving. But thats ok i still have my new church family and my friends who i have bible study with. and best of all I have found the true Lord who is helping me get through this time,
I was just like you a year ago. defending the church that i thought was right. I was quoting scripture that did not make sense but that is what the church put in my head.
I have to tell you i am still angry but that is what i am working on.
I don't think this conversation was fruitless. I think you have learned a lot. and the true word of God is never fruitless. I hope latter on you look at the scriptures i shared and open your mind to the true words of God (minus the influence of the LDS church) just the Influence of God.
Just think of this for every one member that joins the church one leaves the church.
Good luck to you and see you around the Hub.
Well thats too bad that people have treated you that way. when I was inactive, my friends and family only showed more love and friendship towards me. They were never pushy with the whole religion thing and for the most part they only wanted me to know that their friendship had a deep meaning. I'm sure there is more than one side to your story, From my perspective if you are constantly bombarding them with antiMoemon literature there would have to be a point when they have to cut you loose, because all that stuff does is detract from the faith of others. If you just said you didn't want to belong to the church I have a feeling that they would have more respect for that than listening to you bash on their church all day. And if you think I'm wrong, the proof is in the pudding, all I have to do is look back at all of your previous posts to see that 99% of your activity on this sight is Mormon bashing. You have barely gone to any other hubs than LDS ones, and you even bring up anti-Mormon topics in the forums. The fact that you can't leave it alone in the computer world tells only a small story compared to what your daily life of running around the campus of BYU telling everyone that they are wrong is probably like.
Yes it is true that LDS like to boast of the good things that the Lord has prompted them to do, but for the most part I have never seen members of the LDS church negating the good deeds of others. I find it to be a typical thing that when people leave an organization of any type out of bitterness they immediately begin to search for all of their negative aspects in order to justify quitting. It's the same thing with leaving a sports team. Nobody goes go over to another team and tells everyone how great the last team was, they trash them, just like you are doing.
See you later Jay.
What did i share with you that was not true. what is anti Mormon, how is it anti Mormon when it is true. Yes i am angry because i have been lied to all my life i have been brain washed it's like being raped. I do feel convicted by the Lord when i get angry but that is a struggle that i have to over come, I am working on it.
The scriptures (which you would not comment on) i have shared show that the lds faith is false and i am going to share it with everyone i can because i feel its from satan.
Jay I am not interested in a doctrinal debate. It doesn't realy matter what I say about those scriptures or any others for that matter because you will refute my, or my church's interpertation of them. So what's the point in arguing? I believe they are interperted to mean one thing and you think they mean something else, is this not the exact reason that there are hundreds of denominations of christianity out there which completely disagree on the same passages of scripture? Yes it is!
The difference is that I have to go by the promp[tings of the spirit whereas you are going by means of reason or sophostry. Or in other words the Bible is best interperted by the ones who can best debate it's meanings, however this is a false precept. There is no iron clad philosophy augmented from the Bible by men except when guided by revelation, or prophecy. it doesn't matter how weak you believe my philosophy on the bible is because I interpert it by the gift of the Holy Spirit, yes that little feeling deep down inside which says this is right and that is wrong. That is why I will not comment on your interpertation of the bible, because I believe it is wrong.
I have had the same arguments many times over with other people who have brought up many common trends of past churches, or apologists refuting the LDS church, and it only strengthens my faith that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.
You wish to prove me wrong? Go ahead and try.
The wind made a bet with the Sun saying "I can blow the jacket right off of that man." So he blew and blew, and the harder he blew, the tighter the man wrapped his jacket around himself. Then the Sun came out, and the man took his jacket off.
The true gospel of Christ is the light of my life, and you are the wind attempting to cast doubt on the light which the Lord our God has presented to me. No ammount of man made philosophy can prove that my faith is in a false precept. None of your interpertation of the Bible will ever prove my Church to be wrong, EVER. It cannot be compared to the work I have been involved in, the Charity, the good will, the temple worship, the family building, the meeting house attendance, and the divinely inspired men I associate with. All have a common theme, and that is the inspired works of God in the countance of his people who live the holy life from one minute to the next, and I will continue to share it with as many people as I can because I KNOW it is from God.
that is ok But the LDS faith starts at the great apostasy and the need for the gospel to be restored. The lds us the scripture 2 thess 2:3 to justify they're claim. Like i said before they only use half of the scripture to support they're claim. The lds church leave out when the the great apostasy will happen. And it says it plainly that it will happen when "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (satan). that is when the apostasy will happen. The Lds faith lives or dies by this scripture.
Are Evangelicals correct when they criticize Mormons for believing in a universal apostasy? Is it true that the Christian Church that Christ established always been on the Earth? It doesn’t seem that the following individuals thought so.
Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America at Providence, Rhode Island, refused to continue as pastor on the grounds that, "There is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking." (Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In, ed. William Cullen Bryant, New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1872, vol. 1, p. 502.)
Williams also said, "The apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew." (Underhill, Edward, "Struggles and Triumphs of Religious Liberty", cited in William F. Anderson, "Apostasy or Succession, Which?", pp. 238-39)
In a work prepared by seventy-three noted theologians and Bible students, we read: "...we must not expect to see the Church of Holy Scripture actually existing in its perfection on the earth. It is not to be found, thus perfect, either in the collected fragments of Christendom, or still less in any one of these fragments. . . ." (Dr. William Smith, Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1896.)
Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, prominent American Baptist clergyman and author, described the decadent condition of the Christian churches of the first half of the twentieth century in these words:
"A religious reformation is afoot, and at heart it is the endeavor to recover for our modern life the religion of Jesus as against the vast, intricate, largely inadequate and often positively false religion about Jesus. Christianity today has largely left the religion which he preached, taught and lived, and has substituted another kind of religion altogether. If Jesus should come back to now, hear the mythologies built up around hint, see the creedalism, denominationalism, sacramentalism, carried on in his name, he would certainly say, 'If this is Christianity, I am not a Christian.'"
John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, lamented that the Christian had apostatized from the gospel that Christ and the apostles had taught, had lost the spiritual gifts that they once enjoyed, and had turned heathen again with only a dead form left:
"It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honor upon Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not as has been supposed because there was no more occasion for them because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause of it was the love of many, almost all Christians, so called, was waxed cold. The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church because the Christians were turned heathens again, and only had earth a dead form left." (Wesley's Works, vol. 7, 89:26, 27)
In the Church of England Homily Against Peril of Idolatry we read: "So that laity and clergy, learned and unlearned, all ages, sects, and degrees of men, women, and children of whole Christendom -- an horrible and most dreadful thing to think -- have been at once drowned in abominable idolatry; of all other vices most detested by God, and most damnable to man; and that by the space of eight hundred years and more." The Book of Homilies dates from about the middle of the sixteenth century; and in it is thus officially affirmed that the so-called Church and the whole religious world had been utterly apostate for eight centuries or more prior to the establishment of the Church of England.
In the words of one eminent historian, "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated [new] life in the theology and liturgy of the Church." (Will Durant, The Story of Civilization, 3:595.)
Thomas Jefferson, though not a cleric in the usual sense, was a great student of Christianity. Even he acknowledged the loss of the original gospel and said that he looked forward to "the prospect of a restoration of primitive Christianity."
this is the Problem, we listen to people and not the bible. ok what does the bible say. revelation ch 13. this is when the apostasy will happen. When satan starts to teach his doctrine. he fools the people and they turn to him.
onu... listen to God not people.
And is it true about the lds church only using half of the of 2 thess?
Again it is very presumptuous to think that man has a solid grasp on such issues as chronology of the apocalypse. This is something that is heavily debatable even on the scholarly level. Hence there are those who live and die by the assertion that there must be a pre-tribulation rapture as opposed to a post tribulation rapture all the while demanding nothing less than eternal hell fire to those who dare think otherwise.
In the beginning when God create mankind he endowed that marvelous work of his with intelligence and an inherent ability to speak directly to him and likewise receive instruction from him. I am thankful that this is a core principle taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which is continuously guided by the savior of mankind Jesus Christ by way of revelation and through his prophets and apostles.
Ok, let’s start over. The lds church uses 2 thess 2:3 to justify a great apostasy, right? The church does not use the whole verse. They only use 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first. According to the lds this accorded shortly after the original disciples died.
but if you keep on reading, it will show that this has not yet happened, continue reading,” and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (satan the anti-christ) this will be the falling away when the anti-christ is revealed. The anti-Christ was not revealed the first or second century AD.
The LDS uses this scripture to back their beliefs. This is the scripture that is the back bone to the Lds faith. but they got it all wrong. They miss interpret the scripture. So it shows the lds faith is falls.
When faced with the LDS belief in a "great" apostasy, many people ask, "If God is omnipotent, how could He let His Church fail and fall away?" We will address this question directly later on, but for now it should be enough to point out that not only did God let it happen--He even predicted it through His prophets and Apostles.
Paul spoke of this apostasy ("falling away") when he told the elders at Ephesus that "after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:29-30) Thus the Church would be under attack both from without (persecution) and from within (heresy). Indeed, Paul had serious concerns about the Church's stability when he wrote to Timothy that the saints would turn away from sound doctrine:
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. (2 Timothy 4:3-5)
Notice how Paul entreated Timothy to do his duty as an evangelist, but indicated that the Church in general would forsake the faith. In the same letter Paul intimated that "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me" (2 Timothy 1:15)--and Asia Minor was exactly where most of the Christian converts lived.3
Peter also warned the saints that "there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter 2:1-2)
The apostasy was to happen before the second coming of Christ. Paul told the Thessalonians not to worry about Christ coming back anytime soon saying, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Greek apostasia] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." (2 Thessalonians 2:3) This apostasy was already underway. "For already the secret power of wickedness is at work, secret only for the present until the Restrainer disappears from the scene." (2 Thessalonians 2:7 NEB) Who was the "Restrainer" Paul spoke of? When we remember that Paul told the elders at Ephesus that persecutions would rage and heretics would arise from within the Church after he departed (Acts 20:29-30), it becomes clear that this was a reference to the Apostles themselves.
Such references to an apostasy already underway are to be found throughout the New Testament. For instance, Paul rebuked the Galatians for turning to a perverted form of the gospel:
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-8)
Paul also warned the Corinthians against "false Apostles" (2 Corinthians 11:13) who preached "another Jesus, whom we have not preached." (2 Corinthians 11:4) Remember also that Paul told the elders at Ephesus that as soon as he was gone, false teachers would arise out of their ranks and deceive many.
Paul and Peter wrote in the 50's and 60's, and evidently they were witness to serious troubles within the Church. However, when we turn to later writings, such as Jude (ca. 80 A. D.) and John (late 90's), clearly the situation had become critical.
Jude, the brother of Jesus, wrote a general epistle to combat the many false teachers who had crept into the Church:
It was needful for me to . . . exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:3-4)
The Jerusalem Bible is more specific about the identity of these false teachers. "Certain people have infiltrated among you, and they are the ones you had a warning about, in writing, long ago." Who warned the saints "in writing" about the infiltration of false teachers? Jude goes on to explain that this warning came from the Apostles, so it stands to reason that this was the apostasy foretold in the earlier New Testament writings. "But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts." (Jude 1:17-18)
The most specific reference to the totality of the apostasy, however, is in Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians. Here Paul noted not only that an apostasy was inevitable, but that the "son of perdition" would sit "as God in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) It is difficult to imagine how this prophecy was to be fulfilled if the Church was to remain.
2 thessalonians2 is saying that the apostasy will happen when satan sits in the temple acting like he is god. Has this happened yet? No!!! this will happen in the future.
The LDS church is saying that this has already happened because they believe the apostasy already happened.
I wont responed to the rest of your comments at this time because i want to stay with this 2 THESS.
I will respond to the rest at a later time.
In 2 Thessalonians it says that a falling away will occur followed by the son of perdition (Satan) who exalts himself above God sitting in the temple. Of course this part of the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, none the less there has been an apostasy, followed by a restoration of all things which would have to occur if the devil is to stand in the temple of God. If God did not have his temple built again among the people with all the ordinances and rights of the priesthood present to officiate in such an endeavor surely there would be no temple to build. Thus there needs be a restoration of the temple in order for the son of perdition to eventually stand in the temple of God.
So you have your interpretation of the scripture and I have mine. You say I'm wrong and I say I'm right. When we read the bible we are both looking at the truth, but when we begin to interpret what it says this is called subjective truth, which is just a doctored up version of plane and simple opinion.
If the scriptures said, they will be a falling away, then a restoration then the son of perdition, I would believe the why you do. But that is not what it saids. it saids a falling away (AND) the son of perdition... sitting in the temple.
Just like Rev 13. where satan is on earth teaching "a better doctrine, a better way to salvation." this will cause a falling away. people being fooled by the beast.
Now when will the restoration of all things happen?
Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Restoration " to restore to former condition of health (the earth)
Again you seem to be hung up on chronology of events. This is an extreemly narrow and selective view of scripture. What you are implying is that these scriptures couldn't possibly be fufilled out of chronology. Yet we seem to have no problem when the savior declares that "this generation shall not pass till all of these things be fufilled." Mark-13:30 despite the fact that several generations have passed since the time of Jesus.
Further this narrowly defined chronology of biblical prophecy to which you hold seems to allow the fact that Jesus Christ also declared that the prophecy of Elijahs return had also only partially come to fruition through John the Baptist and yet is to be fufilled as Christ clearly stated when he said; "surely Elijah will come". Yet there is nothing in the original Malachai prophecy which says Elijah will come twice. In fact there is no old testament scripture which specifically declares that there will be a second coming of the Messiah in order to fufill all of the prophecies made during the times of old testament prophets.
It is by the same principle which you hold that present day Jews do not subscribe to the belief of the divine sonship of Jesus Christ. Just as they bellieve that Jesus did not properly fufill the old testament prophecies enough to qualify him to be the promised Messiah, you do not believe in a universal apostacy.
When the scriptures tell you straight out, take it for what the words say. Smith saw an opportunity to twist the words and now every lds twists it.
Mark 13:30 focus on the word "Generation" if you have a Strong’s you will see that this means "age". So this age will not pass. What age? There are 3 ages. The age when satan was still an angel, this age, and the age to come. Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. So this age will not pass until all is fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 12:2
2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
The Elijah taught about repentance and so did John the baptize (one like Elijah). come on Onusonus.
I don't know about what the Jews believe. but the LDS believe in a similar idea.
I know that the LDS church believes that Jesus' blood is not good enough to wipe clean all sin. the lds church believes that Jesus' sacrifice was not good enough.
While your explanation of Mark 13:30 and the Elijah prophecy rests perfectly fine with me, I find it to be contradictory on your part to allow a certain level of leniency of interpretation for one scripture and not the other in order for it to fit into your personal scope of what is truth and what is error.
The fact is that if you wish to apply "twisting of scripture" to others after having put together this elaborate explanation of the term "age" which you added to the scriptures, (and none of which is specifically pointed out in the Bible it's self), that you are doing the exact thing that you have accused the LDS church of doing.
Now you said that the LDS church believes "Jesus' blood is not good enough to wipe clean all sin." When clearly the scriptures state in Isaiah 64 that "your works are as filthy rags". When in fact in the same paragraph he states: Thou [God] meetest him that joyfully works righteousness."
And again the apostle Paul also warned in Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God" Yet later on James 2:26 states: "faith without works is dead" James 2:26.
The LDS church knows very well the principles taught in the Bible in regards to our need for both faith and works in order for the Lord Jesus Christ to permit us to enter into the presence of his father. Not only are these two principles clearly lined out in the bible but also in the book of Mormon; "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another--I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." (Mosiah 2:21)
"And [the people] viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.
"And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them." (Mosiah 4:2-3,)
"....Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he [Jesus Christ] cometh to bring salvation unto men." (2 Nephi 2:3)
"O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world." (Helaman 5:9, )
"O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day." (Mormon 9:6, )
"And if ye believe on [the name of Jesus Christ] ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his [Jesus Christ] merits." (Helaman 14:13, )
It is now abundantly clear that Latter-day Saints believe we are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ and not by our works. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that we are saved through the righteousness of Jesus Christ, not through our own personal works. Now let's get to the real point of this issue.
To whom does Jesus' redeeming ransom apply? By performing the atonement, Jesus bought our souls and earned the right to act as the final judge of our eternal destiny. It is very important to note that Jesus determines who and who does not have claim upon the atonement that he made. People should not make the mistake of believing that they can somehow steal redemption from the Lord. If a person wants Jesus to save him, then he must be willing to do what Jesus asks of him. Jesus only offers redemption to those who are willing to become his disciples and keep his commandments. If someone is unwilling to become his disciple, why would he imagine that Jesus will save him? Jesus taught:
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10)
Does this mean we have to keep every commandment to be saved? No, it is impossible for any man or woman, regardless of his or her intentions, to keep every commandment perfectly. We are imperfect beings and this is why we needed a Savior in the first place. We needed someone to save us from, and in spite of, our imperfections. And that person is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the world.
However, the Lord does require us to give our best efforts in following him and keeping his commandments. If we will do so, the Lord will save us through his grace and love. However, if we are unwilling to give our best efforts, we obviously don't value what Jesus did for us. So why would we imagine that the Lord will save us?
The Doctrine and Covenants teaches:
"If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D&C 6:13)
"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God." (D&C 14:7)
Oh, that’s right. You believe that your god came from a faraway planet kolob (talk about adding to the word) ok scratch what i said.
anyway back to 2 thess. I know where you are getting it from, first apostasy will happen then Satan is revealed. You are getting that from the joseph smith's translation of the bible. Joseph Smith is the one that added the Word (then) instead of just leaving it as the bible had it (and). The bible has it as the falling away will happen and satan is revealed. Joseph translation has it in stages. Joseph changed the bible to make it fit what he wanted. Joseph was a liar and a manipulator.
What? Are you saying that you no longer know for a fact that the "LDS church believes that Jesus' blood is not good enough to wipe clean all sin.", because of all the overwhelming evidence? Interesting....
Incidentally, I liked your segue into the whole kolob thing. It was a very smooth transition.
Now let's compare the Joseph Smith translation to the King James version;
JST
3 Let no man deceive you by any means; for there shall come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV
3.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I didn't see the word "Then" added, nor did I see the word "And" taken away. It seems to me that the only one here that is trying to manipulate people's words is you.
Notice also just a few verses later he says;
7"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." (Beginning of the apostasy is already in effect)
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"(Ah, that must be where you saw the word "and then", it was a few verses down)
It looks like the KJV of the Bible does set it up in stages.
Passing the word, I'm done arguing with you dude. Every accusation you have brought to me I've squashed, and when you see how baseless your accusation is you just move on to the next accusation without even acknowledging the huge errors and untruths that you have made.
eovery 2 years ago
Thank for the wonder hub.
There are so many things pointing to the apostasy and the resurrection. It was a wonderous and marvelous event in our period of time. I that everyone learn more about this, study it and pray about it. I know this is true and it has happended. There was an apostasy as stated, and the Christ restored it back on earth in preparation of his second coming - that the bride would be ready for the bridegroom.
Keep on hubbing.